Bloodthirsty
I'm not going to miss Zarqawi. I don't miss Uday and Quasay. But I still find it horribly distasteful and dangerous to celebrate the death of our enemies by parading their dead bodies in front of the masses.
I know people will do it. I know people will cheer. I've never found cause to celebrate the violent and bloody demise of another human (no matter how necessary) with such nastiness. It's ugly. These are ugly times, but must we succomb to such mindless blood lust?
Mostly because I can imagine how I could become a Zarqawi. Any one of us could turn into a vile and hateful creature. I'd argue that many of us who celebrate the macabre death mask peering out from the front pages are displaying a touch of the very same behavior for which he was murdered. We are not all that different. The only thing that seperates him from me or you is circumstance. That's it, whether you will admit to it or not.
Although I do not in any way condone his actions I cannot be pleased about his death, even though in some sad way I have to support it. He was a human being and I refuse to celebrate his death. That would be adding fuel to an out of control fire.
Kill them if you have to, but don't fuck around with the dead. Whenever you disrespect any life, any life at all, it comes back to haunt you.
I know people will do it. I know people will cheer. I've never found cause to celebrate the violent and bloody demise of another human (no matter how necessary) with such nastiness. It's ugly. These are ugly times, but must we succomb to such mindless blood lust?
Mostly because I can imagine how I could become a Zarqawi. Any one of us could turn into a vile and hateful creature. I'd argue that many of us who celebrate the macabre death mask peering out from the front pages are displaying a touch of the very same behavior for which he was murdered. We are not all that different. The only thing that seperates him from me or you is circumstance. That's it, whether you will admit to it or not.
Although I do not in any way condone his actions I cannot be pleased about his death, even though in some sad way I have to support it. He was a human being and I refuse to celebrate his death. That would be adding fuel to an out of control fire.
Kill them if you have to, but don't fuck around with the dead. Whenever you disrespect any life, any life at all, it comes back to haunt you.
posted by Bree O'Connor at 4:53 PM
10 Comments:
Interesting.
I was thinking the same sorts of thoughts as I sat in front of the TV this week (out of town) when it was announced. I was thinking that it was rather sensationalitic to actually show the pictures of his dead face and I wondered if anyone felt as I did -- that there was something altogether dirty about lowering ourselves to that standard...
Thanks for taking up my slack and pointing it out.
I wonder though -- I understand the military's reasoning (to dismiss any rumors to the contrary and, therefore embolden the rabble-rousers), but I really question the media's intent in publishing the material.... At least here, in Amerika.
Doesn't it seem a leetle like propaganda when they do it?
Wow. Mr. contrary agrees with both of you (in some sense). Saw the headline last night and didn't even bother clicking it. Saw the photos on the front page of the paper in the lunch room and felt sick. Viewing a horrible auto accident doesn't make me ill, but this was parading for certain.
It's the hipocracy that gets me. If we were a nation that openly sought war and dominance, enjoyed battle, and held sacred the rite of conquest, I could fully support Bush drinking Zarqawi's blood from his hollowed out skull. Posting those oversized photos all over Iraq to 'assure the people of his demise' is exactly that and unbecoming of a democratic nation. Anyone who wants to believe Zarqawi still alive can claim the photos fake. It's a thinly veiled excuse to A) grandstand and B) scare those who might harbor ideas similar to those of Zarqawi. Sick.
Watching Nick Berg being beheaded sure scared this crap out of me.
I am extremely glad this monster is dead. I hope that all who share his ideas die extremely painful deaths. They are not, as Bree suggests, human beings. They are monsters. They gave up their membership card in the human race when they decided that anyone who didn't share their metaphysical beliefs bdidn't deserve the same human rights and liberties.
That being said, I agree that it was extremely distasteful to parade pictures of his corpse. Then again, at least the U.S. cleaned up the corpse first. The attrocities committed by Jihadists and recorded for history show none of this comparatively good taste.
I don't believe in monsters. Monsters are incomprehensible things with no emotions and are not governed by any sense of reason. That is clearly not true in this case. If you step back and reconstruct the circumstances of a person's life you can come to some kind of undedrstanding of their behavior. If you understand, then you can combat it. Dismissing them as monsters only absolves us of our responsibilities in the creation of the circumstances that yield this kind of behavior. We all play a part. Of course I don't condone this behavior and we certainly didn't "ask for it". That is not what I am saying at all. It is an atrocity that shakes me to the core of my being. But I would be remiss in my duties as a human being to not try to understand what conditions contribute to monsterous behavior. They feel they are justified. As difficult as it is to let go of emotional responses when something so horrific is perpetrated on other human beings it is absolutely necessary or we simply feed the cycle that creates these "monsters".
No. I stand with my original statement. Zarqawi was a human being.
Yeah. This is why I'm not a good liberal any more. I'm tired of the "it's society's fault" B.S..
A human being doesn't mass murder innocents. That takes a monster.
Some dogs are sick or crazed, and need to be put down.
Should I blame repressive arab regimes that redirect the frustrations of their people towards the west? Sure. But these murdering bastards are still monsters, regardless of what motivates them.
I'm not arguing about the necessity of his death. I'm saying with the term "monster" gets thrown around it stops people from thinking and examining and questioning. As far as I am concerned, the question of "why" is the most important one facing the human race. If I dismiss him I will only run into "him" again and again.
"They gave up their membership card in the human race when they decided that anyone who didn't share their metaphysical beliefs bdidn't deserve the same human rights and liberties."
I'd like to point out that from "their" perspective, they could say the same fucking thing about us. Does that mean it is true? Who the fuck knows? Don't kid yourself, you could be a monster in a fucking heartbeat given the right circumstances. It is in our nature. The capacity for evil is just as human as the capacity for good.
Humans ARE monsters. We are not all goodness and light. Like I said, I don't miss the fucker. I just think this conduct is unbecoming and that it keeps us at that low level. As much as I believe we are all capable of evil, I would rather see us rise above it and conduct ourselves with a little dignity and class.
Bree, I think we disagree on a very fundamental level. You seem to say that evil isn't perpetrated by individuals, but by the society that builds the evil in those individuals.
("Don't kid yourself, you could be a monster in a fucking heartbeat given the right circumstances")
I reject that notion.
Adversity is everywhere in life. What defines an individual is how one decides to process and deal with that adversity.
Say I was sexually abused as a child and, in turn, abuse my kids. Is it society's fault that I becomne a child molester? Is it the fault of the person who molested me?. No, it'd be my fault. I'd be a monster, because someone capable of molesting a child is, in my thinking, less than fully human.
Some people are bad. Some by nature, some by choice. None get a free pass because their life's circumstances suck. Jihadists have many choices. When they choose mass-murder of innocents, they become monsters. Our topic of conversation was one of them. This sort of person SHOULD be seen as sub-human trash. They ARE sub-human trash. Good riddance.
"from 'their' perspective, they could say the same fucking thing about us."
For the sake of argument, I assume that by "they", you mean Jihadists.
The Jihadist worldview maintains (among other things) that one is less than fully human if one is not a Muslim. I, however, maintain that one is less than fully human when one mass-murders countless innocents (I include G.W. Bush here as a monster).
But I get very tired of the hang-wringing, apologist moral relativism from the left in Europe and the U.S.. Cultural relativism is a view that cultures and values aren't good or bad, but defined by their own context. I think that's bullshit. For instance, ritual female genital mutilation (the non-voluntary sort) isn't okay. I don't give a rat's ass what your backwards tribal beliefs are- it is wrong and evil to cut off a woman's clitoris. Some things, actions, beliefs, and people are evil.
Jihadists in many places, including Palestine, teach their children that it is good, noble, and beloved by God to blow oneself up in order to take some ape-dog Jews with you. If that's not evil, what the hell IS?
I still agree that parading a corpse for PR/PsyOps purposes is in poor taste.
I think you misunderstand me. It is not one or the other, his fault, my fault or society's fault. It is all of the above. Of course we are all responsible for our own actions. My point is that SINCE we are all resposonsible for our actions than we must always ask ourselves how we contribute to any particular situation. Of course Zarqawi is and should be held accountable for his sins just as I shall be held accountable for mine. So how do I conduct myself? I can't change him, I can only change myself.
However, we cannot divorce ourselves from our own chemistry. By coming up with simple answers to difficult questions we do not find solutions only problems. There is a mountain of data from sociological and psychological studies that suggest there is a razor's edge between "good" moral behavior and bad.(I'll get into that when I have time for a proper post, because, well, because you've pissed me off) What I resent about this conversation is your absolutism. How do you propose we deal with monsters? Kill one and another and another and another... to over simplify the matter you could compare it to an infestation. You can keep swatting at wasps and swelter with your windows closed or you could deal with the nest where they breed. What are the ideal conditions that breed (or over breed) the pests? What if you could eliminate one of those conditions?
I'm a little pissed at your assumption that I am offering a free pass to anyone. Where the fuck did I say that? Figuring out why people do the things they do does not excuse the behavior. How many times do I have to say I don't condone it? Have I, even once, said that they should get off scott free and go to happy fucking candy land? No. I've been suggesting that if we look at them as humans in certain circumstances (some biological, some sociological, some economical, etc. etc) then we might be able to get to the bottom of this fucking mess. I'm not making excuses. I'm doing the only thing I know how to do in order to consider solutions. I fucking resent your holier than thou moral absolutism that dismisses the truth of human behavior. I can't believe that you've never been so boiling at the thought of some injustice (real or perceived) that you haven't considered perpetrating a heinous act on another person(s). You might be wanting to strangle me right now- I'll accept that. Yes, you have a choice whether to actually do it or not, but the presence of that impulse should give you a tiny clue as to the real nature of man. We are both. We are capable of all. Ignoring that fact is a dangerous and arrogant mistake, my friend.
I fucking resent your holier than thou moral absolutism that dismisses the truth of human behavior.
First, a rejection of moral relativism is not neccessarily an absolutism.
Let me ask you this: Is the "absolutism" of saying "it is wrong to forcefully cut off a woman's clitoris, no matter what culture you are from" bothersome to you?
Second, it isn't holier-than-thou. I'm just stating my belief, same as you. I apologize if it came off as sanctamonious- that's not my intention.
I've been suggesting that if we look at them as humans in certain circumstances (some biological, some sociological, some economical, etc. etc) then we might be able to get to the bottom of this fucking mess.
I agree that the horrible state of the majority of the muslim world has a hell of a lot to do with the continued generation and cultivation of monsters. I even agree that the U.S. is complicit for having continued to do business with regimes that not only oppress their own people, but then redirect the anger of the repressed back at the west and at Israel. I agree that the circumstances that grow monsters are important. I agree that we should do everything possible to help end those conditions. I think we should refuse to buy oil from nations without representational government, but that makes me a left-wing sort of whackjob in mainstream political circles.
I can't believe that you've never been so boiling at the thought of some injustice (real or perceived) that you haven't considered perpetrating a heinous act on another person(s).
Of COURSE I have! But I didn't act on it. Hence, I get to keep my membership card in the human race and multiple social contracts.
Yes, we are all capable on some level of evil, Bree. I'm not ignoring that.
I'm saying I don't believe it is relevant, in any way, to how we should feel about the death of monsters.
I'm not accusing you of condoning his crimes, Bree. I'm regretting the tendency of thoughtful, enlightened people to try to empathize with monsters.
They don't deserve the effort.
I also don't believe in rehabilitation of muderers and rapists. I think they should stay in jail forever.
I apologize for having upset you, Bree. I was enjoying the vigorous disagreement, and often forget that not everyone enjoys such things the same way I do.
Don't assume that I don't enjoy getting worked up.
I think the biggest sticking point here is that I'm not encouraging "Feeling" anything about the "death of monsters". Just the opposite. I would much prefer that we look at these events from an uncomfortable vantage point. It seems so much easier, to me, to look at dispicable acts and throw them away as the exception to the rule. I would rather challenge people (and myself) to understand just how close we could be (given the right circumstances, this is key) to making "evil" choices. This is important. If we do not challenge ourselves to understand we could find ourselves in a position to be an accomplice to evil. In my view, understanding and accepting the existance of darkness is the only way to combat it.
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